I was just reading a post in the Missions and Complexes forum and something one poster said made me chuckle.

The Bastion module should be renamed to "CAM-B" module, because once you activate it it's like saying "Come at me, Bro" .

Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this.
The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE.
He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to)
This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic.

I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour.

When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets.

This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)

Now that you have seen at least one battle report with a lot of Tengus it's not enough. You want to see battle reports with 100 cloaky Tengus?

The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.

Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?

just flat out immaturity.

Megathrons wern't built for frigate gangs either but I fly in them non the less. The kronos will do just fine with skirmish fleets.

Woah.

Uh, I kinda wanted that non-stacking 30% though. It would have been a huge F U to gankers. Tech II resists... damn. Uh, I'm not sure how I feel about this. In one fell swoop you just make these things way less tanky and ... replaced it with a web bonus...

This is going to make my Paladin slightly worse than it is now, won't it? I just... I need to evaluate these changes in depth and stop rambling.

My first reaction is NOT supportive though. Don't cave so easily to the haters.

Why not care about the marauder changes?
The way I see it, if you don't currently use marauders you should definitely be interested in the changes, because you really should want a reason to use them.

I want a reason to use them. With the first iteration of the proposed changes I definitely would. Not so sure about this latest iteration.

To quote this other post.



And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.

What this thread most reveals is the need for a dislike button.
Likes received, dislikes received and net like/dislikes.
Even including Harry's posting this thread has been the one where i wanted it most.

Hahahaha

oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events

ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great

CCP give this guy a job

is this basically you saying "yeah we haven't got a clue what we want marauders to do, but we've got plenty of time to flip a coin on it"?

Honestly, I think it's more like "We have theory crafted several different options that would not imbalance game play. We'd like to bounce a few off of you to see which you like best."

Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?

i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.

the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs.
t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus.
bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions.
nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them.
sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.

I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships.

My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost.

Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.

Just an idea...

I like what this guy said .....^^^^

Wtf do I need webbers on my golem are you ******** .....F*u*c*K ccp just make another bs for you ******** bastion mode .

Gonna sell mine before there stuffed'

To many figjams on this thread

I want my marauder skill points back .

To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.

With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!

or

You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:

"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"

Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol

Do we get completely new ship models?

Just redone?

Or maybe not even touched?


How complicated animation will be?

Didnt notice this in the posts, but I had a question about the Bastion Module. The dev post states an immunity to ewar. Is this across the board, as ive been reading up on HICs and noticed the scripted disruptor bypasses ewar immunity.

How to rebalance marauders, Wizz style ^^

Version 1

Role: specialized to work under "unsafe" conditions. Can do stuff in PvE due to damage application bonuses.

Role bonus:
100% to damage
25% damage absorbed by overheating modules
25% reduction to nanite paste consumption while repairing modules
20% bonus to modules repair speed while using nanite paste

Racial BS skill bonuses (both indirect damage application of primary weapon system)
+7.5% expl radius
+7.5% expl velocity
or
+7.5% tracking speed to respective turret type
+5% faloff and optimal

Marauders skill bonuses
+7.5% primary tanking type boost amount
+5% bonus to overheated module primary effect *
*Non-overheated AB gives for example 200m/s, overheated 250, overheated with Marauders5 200+(250-200)*(1+0.05*5) = 262.5

Fits into: survivability in hostile space. Requires a careful selection of what to overheat and when thus requires high piloting skills. t2 resist profile and repair bonus, making it imba sustainable tank, but intentionally left prone to alpha

CCP, tell me u just didn't said u have not enough imagination ^^

I think you need to say it a little louder, nobody seems to see the implications of this. Especially since you're now out-tanking almost every subcap PVE ship with all of their bling, with just a single module.

As some other people already proposed, a good solution could be "scripts". Let's call them something like "Deployment Reconfiguration Protocol" (so Sci-fy and people against name dumbing can be happy). A pair of scripts should be enough.

As concept:

Marauders (1st edition + T2 resist)

• No Reconfiguration: sort of bastion first edition,however the bouns repair amount is lowered by 37.5%
• "Ship of the Line" Reconfiguration: Lose EW immunity, some resists and local repair bonus, can be remote assisted (incursion/fleet stand)
• "Ironclad" Reconfiguration: No resists (or repair, it should a defense penalty) gain little damage bonus/application and extended EW range.

They would need a lot more of work regard balance but that's the idea.

The sad part would be that probably none of the proposers really believe it is a solution as much as a damage control....

OFF TOPIC (but relevant) : This is one fair solution to the poor value I get when other players are allowed to interfere with what Im doing. Just keep quiet about the sandbox etc. Everyone knows that the griefers are stealing and baiting in order to cause harm and rage.

You could solve this another way : If someone steals mission loot they gain a death warrant from the owner. Mission runner has kill rights plus a countdown timer. When [timer expires] -OR- ninja has been [killed one time] then flags reset. Ninja cannot refit and engage without concord intervention.

Thanx for reading.
-T-

I'm wondering a litle bit about the short cycle time of the bastion mode. And if the bastion mode should use fuel... will a Marauder get a fuel hangar?

Very short range

I still dream of mounting T3 subsystems on one of these things.

Exactly how I feel. Well said.

Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?

Obviously this is the most important change happening here.

Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?

CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!

I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea.
What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?

Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs.
Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!

Plus:
If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship.
Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)

Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed.
Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute.
Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.

that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :)

would be convenient wouldn't it? :D get on the horn to fox four and assign him a few fit warriors with someone versed in fleet command, you'll have your graphs sir..oh yes YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR SHINY PICTURES! XD

the subsystems for t3 are modelled off of the HAC and force recon equivelents, t3's are "general" cuz they can pick an choose between which ones they want, yes this creates a general purpose hull, but the base components are specialised - hence my interpretation that t3's are specialised hulls that can become generalised by choosing to do so - equally a t3 can become very specialised by picking only the subsystems that aid a single task, it's all down to what you build it to do and how you fly it, it is..what you make of it X)

no.. you are plain stupid. he has more knowlede and experience.. he knows how to use classy words and anyway.. he knows he's ****.

you are total moron to think otherwise

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

ffs look at that picture... pirate BS is t1.5 compared to marauders!!!!



hell.. dem marauders are so specialized atm that all incursion fleets are full of them, marauding and stuff while hauling expensive salvages into cargohold :D they be doing srs business behind enemy lines and marauding all together and stuff.

except no one wants them in fleet

it can, but ccp will have to stop focusing on making their changes prioritise defensive tactics, you don't win by isolating yourself from your allies, you don't win by sitting dead still and allowing your enemy to kill you on their terms and you don't win by allowing your opponent the room they need to simply ignore you.

you win by crushing them under your heel with unavoidable force, marauders by default fight at long range - with exception of the kronos (which still can but its current bonus set prioritises close quarters)

give the marauder hulls their optimal/falloff bonus, give them the rate of fire/damage bonus, the repair amount boost bonus and their tracking bonus - this means the default stance to a marauder is to sit at long range and skirmish (like they already do)

allowing them to continue doing what they do already, THEN for the bastion module, invert the role entirely, make its focus an all or nothing attack move, marauders are violent they don't huddle back off in the distance when things get bad they get very angry and aggressive, they defend by attacking indiscriminately - thus removing the thing causing them harm - or perishing in the attempt, this way marauders get a new function, and keep their old one at the same time - all peeps go home happy.

So perhaps balance the hulls for PVP, and the bastion module for PVE... or vice versa.

you spin me right round baby right round ,like a record baby round round right round.

And it's been 34 pages (coming on a week soon) since the last dev post, pretty much everything to be said about the proposed changes has been said

=/

Dude, relax. Blue tag told us that they need to take their time.

Meaning the more we spam, the faster CCP works, eh?

+1 because your post lacks the usual rage-whine, it least sounds more interesting than some of those other suggestions, and thinking about your suggestion is not a sure trip to lala-land.

Its only a 1 minute timer. Hics tackling supers (and even dreads in seige tbh) already have to do the rep kiting (get primaried, turn off mod, tank for a minute, get repped back up, enemy changes primary, mod on again) and its a great mechanic that should be encouraged. It requires actual judgement to use. And people facing them will need to switch targets to try and catch someone with cycle just started, overload to break them before they come out etc just like with triage/seige). Of course at a certain fleet size it will become redundant but for small gang stuff it will work well.

I would like to suggest one change to how Bastion Mode works that might solve a few issues and open up their use in PVE (Incursion) groups and perhaps prompt a few experiments in fleet doctrines and smaller gang PVP.

Currently Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance.

I suggest that perhaps it should instead be "Bastion Mode prevents all remote assistance except from other ships in Bastion Mode".

Considering the wealth of utility slots a Marauder has, that opens up some interesting possibilities.

The first iteration was definitely more enjoyable looking for missioning, and the latest iteration was most definitely catered to incursions at the expense of literally everything else.

Don't worry though, they're changing stuff around again. My advice: Most of the secondary skills for Marauders I are skills you should train up anyway. Keep the training plan going. I have faith in CCP to get this sorted out.

Some suggestions for the "fancy visible animations" for the various Marauders in Bastion mode:

* Paladin slides into a protective plastic membrane sleeve (aka "C.O.N.D.O.M.") with a "classified" viscous fluid armor coating;

* Golem moves its missile launcher wings in sweeping up and down motion for increased gyrostabilization, and emits piercing squawks to jam enemy electronics;

* Kronos emanates a high pitched tone tuned to oscillate in resonance with its armor plating, as its tines vibrate;

* Vargur becomes enveloped with overlapping webs of black protective heat resistant shielding (aka "D.U.C.T.A.P.E.") and radiates a fine particulate defensive chaff (aka rust).

This thread is still alive ?

I said we need a Juggernaut.

Doctor Who?

Agreed, although the first one wasn't bad with a few adjustments. I still think there are other options to look at however, same as you.

I always enjoy it when someone effectively says "put your money where your mouth is", and the other person responds with "not a problem".

Good question. If someone has a database of completion times that we can use as a standard, that would be swell. Otherwise I'll see what I can do to get some quick averages. I will probably do a few trial runs to get an idea of how much time I'm going to need as I'm going to try and do the missions back to back. I will be skipping courier missions.

This toon has 100m+ SP, not all related skills are at V but a good chunk of them are.

I am going to make it a bit more challenging and limit the fits to T1/T2/Meta modules. Faction charges, implants, nanite repair paste, and combat boosters* are fair game. I won't be using off-grid boosts, fleet window will be visible as proof.

I'll also be using out of game tools to appropriately prepare for and run the missions just as anyone else can. No mission will be blitzed and I'll make a reasonable effort to obtain keys for bonus rooms. I have no idea what my standings are, but I'm going to try to run the missions in the appropriate faction space for the ship.

Since warping out will count as a failure for the ship, I will not be warping out.

I'm interpreting "Most of the ships" as any amount greater than 50%. So to complete the challenge, I will need to successfully run 10 missions without warping out a single time in at least seven of the twelve T1 hulls. Once I have a metric for reasonable completion times, I will be able to compare those as well to determine if I successfully completed that portion of the challenge.

Did I miss anything?

With some luck I won't be kicked from my corp for doing this.

*I can use combat boosters at any time. If I have not yet requested the first mission out of the ten, I can consume boosters until I get favorable results. If I wait for a combat booster to expire after requesting the first mission, the wait time will be added to the mission time clock. This applies as well if I can't do the missions back to back. For example, if I stop after the fourth mission, I can't consume boosters until I get favorable results before requesting/starting the fifth.

I see terms have been agreed on. Just keep in mind however you determine reasonable completion time the ships contributing to those numbers need to generally follow the same guidelines, otherwise the test is highly weighted in favor of those other ships.

There is no way to quantify this factor, but keep in mind that a T1 BS has a much lower likelihood of being suicide ganked as well.

the stationary marauder you guys are refering too would be better served calling it a juggernaught class.
big brutish and tanky.

the marauder needs to be fast and agile. lightly armored (within reason), heavy dps (like they are now with good application) and high mobility (mjd bonus, burner speed bonus).

more like a (and i hate to say this) tier 3 bc.

maybe not as fast though.

again, scan probe bonus, salvage bonus.
descent, balanced resists. maybe not all the way up too t2, but we would have figured out that a balanced approach allow you to fight everyone you encounter and not just racial enemies.
as the galaxy grew, they encountered more ships. a need for a more balanced role.
add up the numbers on t2 resists and then divide by 4. like you guys did with the gnosis.
we can pump it up from there.
the dcII gives a steady ammount, the bastion mode (original version) would kick that up another 30% balanced...
if you need stacking penalties to keep it down to a reasonable level, so be it.

I can think of several missions I've run recently where warping out would have been mandatory had I been in an Apocalypse vs. my Paladin. Unless I ran a 5-6 slot tank, that is, in which case mission completion time would have been 2-3x longer.

I Do something crazy with it CCP.

For those interested, I've setup an in game chat channel "MissionChallenge". I'll get things flushed out a bit better in the next day or so, but otherwise I'll be updating the MOTD in the channel with my progress.





I was planning on doing it through Sisi because of the convenience the markets provide. If folks would rather see it done on TQ I can work on making that happen instead.

As long as you're not providing boosts there isn't an issue. You just need to be in another squad/wing/etc. so I can warp to missions or just drop fleet after initiating warp to the mission. Shoot me a message with the factions you have access to with L4 security missions and we'll go from there.

I'm planning on timing the individual missions in addition to the total time for all ten. So everyone can compare the average/individual mission time with their own if they would like to.

No, I think right now they're just a little bit sad, maybe even depressed.

They had this really cool and new Idea and for sub caps it was really unique and it would've given the marauder a totally new role, apart from it's previous occupation.

But all they received was 180 pages of nerd rage, whining and hate...

So I guess they'll be drunk and depressed for another week or so before they (hopefully) recover and get back to some marauder iteration that is closer to what they wanted to do before lots of guys clogged this thread with their "I wanna have a web bonus! Marauders are now crap because I can't use them in incursions anymore! I refuse any change at all!" whine threads.

Seriously, crying about a ship rebalance (repurpose?) just because it wouldn't have been top notch in incursions or solo roaming afterwards, or just because it had one single situational weakness after the rebalance... That's ridiculous.

first: except that it doesn't - marauders in PVP today already fight the way the bastion module tries to make them fight, so they don't need to use bastion unless they're already well and truly in a position where they're going to die and want to draw it out as long as possible. (which is why ccp tried to shoe horn the rep bonus onto bastion to offer some kind of advantage to using the module)


this meant that ccp stole from the PVE runners the primary reason(s) for owning a marauder in the first place, while simultaneously giving pvpers nothing they didn't already have in exchange for no longer being able to runaway form certain death.


in terms of a single situational weakness, that's a very big problem - one weakness means if these things ever became prevalent that only ever one counter move would be used - it stifles fleet creativity, peeps resort to only using the easiest way to do something as it is, and we want to make this worse by forcing a situation where players must use one doctrine to win? - the ships must have multiple weaknesses and multiple strengths that compensate, as bastion is now, it doesn't offer either.

- only removes the positive strengths of the hulls in both environments for the sake of a laughable MJD dependent role idea that no one uses as it is (despite having the option to do so with the current marauders, or even standard battleships)

mentioned this before, but the ships are not what's broken, they have a role and they're good at it - what's broken are the various game mechanics the ships need to use in order to do what they do - that's the part that's resulting in the appearance that the hulls are unbalanced. (also, the single purpose views of the people that fly said ships - 100 missioners cry that the ships are no good cuz it doesn't do the same thing and all of a sudden ccp gets the impression the ship's broken)

"when i fit armor tank and shield tanks to the same ship why does the shield one always seem better for incursions?"

'cuz armor fits are better at using mid slot subversion and projection modules you don't need in incursions and so you falsely believe that armor is some how deficient, despite both doctrines being capable of the same damage outputs, try fitting low slot mods damage and rig damage on your armor tanks..see what happens'

"why are my marauders only good for missions and not for pvp?"

'cuz you're thinking to fly them the same way you do in missions when you try to use them in pvp....you can't tank against players the same way you tank rats..players hurt more - therefore you must adapt your doctrine for the different environment you'll be facing - even if it means discarding your beloved tractor beam and shield boost bonus'

when you look at balancing a ship in eve, a game where ships can be fit to use almost any role, you have to think of the fittings that sit on the hull before you think of the hull itself - then you build the ship around the kinds of fits you want to work better than others, cuz the fittings you want to use determine good ship skill bonuses, determine PG and CPU values, determine fitting slot layouts.

aye, though the 200 pages are kinda normal - am thankful there have been a few around that are trying to refine ideas they make as they go - and more importantly help refine other people's

i used shoehorn cuz that's honestly what it feels like they're doing - "well this first idea didn't quite fit lets throw it back into the furnace and belt it a few times and maybe that'll fix it, won't matter if the metal becomes brittle"..rather than getting an entirely new block and starting again.

No... U !

because then explain me why bother with so long training time and pricetag.

crying is 100% legit and rightful.

I support the idea of two separate bastion modules, rather than scripting. Make the pilot commit before undocking.

So, perhaps I'm one of few who would be thinking about this slightly differently, but...

How effective would this be for taking out POS's and POS mods?

A. Highsec Towers?
B. Cyno Jammers?

When I first read this "mini dread" idea, I thought that perhaps that is some, most, or all, of the new defined role?

How long would it take to remove a highsec offline tower with 10 (a full squad) of these?
How long would it take to remove a cyno jammer with 10 (a full squad) of these?

I do feel though, that perhaps you are giving it too many roles. Could you perhaps turn them into a two ship per race ship class, like command ships, ASFs, HAC,s, Transport ships, etc?
I mean, unless the art department were involved... I hear they are kinda overwhelmed with work.

It wasn't just incursion runners. Anyone who could do maths could see the golem and vargur becoming idiotically powerful loltank baitships. And I don't mean in a good way. In a 40,000dps tank way!

There was no way it was going to fly, and rightly so.

*Edit*
Also, for those curious, I'm going to try and get started on my little challenge tonight. I'm currently looking at around 2100-2200 EDT/0100-0200 Eve, assuming I make it all the way home.

Thats what they get paid for bro ...like it or not eve is a service that has costumers...if no one would play eve would go bankrupt ..so yeah like the other 100+ people that replyed to this we would like an answer on how this is going ..even if they say : we are still testing bla bla ..but still is an answer ...with the bs's they posted before fan fest the patch notes ..replyed then after fan fest no reply and they went on and did it ..so lets hope the same **** doesent happen here and we get golem with webs and other ******** **** like that

I want some of that blue feedback


Thank you

GRATEFUL!?!?!

But this is EVE!!!!

That's something good, approved +1.

Someone say it will nerf solo but i say no, without bastion they will work just like now (just bring them back rep bonus, and give more speed they have even before nerf).
This Bastion gives possibilities, it buffs PVE in many scenarios for solo, but not everytime (so its not OP). In my opinion it's good, it wont make switching bastion everytime, over and over again so player will not get bored with it. And it connects player to ship even more, You need to know Your ship, how much it can take, it creates better player-ship connection, and bringing something new to missions, because You must learn them from scratch to be able to know when You can enter bastion.

Judging from past threads while CCP is reviewing/testing things they respond to the threads, once they stop responding (last CCP post here is #2721 from CCP Rise nearly 3 weeks back) that seems to be what gets put on Sisi and once something is put on Sisi they seem to ignore most feedback and it gets put on TQ with very few, if any changes from the Sisi version.

And yes the expansion is probably ~2.5-3 months away but the according to CCP Ytterbium they want public testing before they finalize things and given their track record on changing things in response to feedback from Sisi that would mean that the new marauders would need to be on Sisi soon (not SoonGäó) or else they simply won't have time to make any changes before it goes to TQ, especially since they still have to do artwork for the new ships.

I think what u meant to say is that ppl who took the extra time to train into marauders, don't want to see their pve effectiveness drop. If CCP is planning on a general buff as indicated by the first iteration bastion mode, pg on vargur, mjd bonus, etc, give the pve ppl who trained for it better pve performance.

It feels like they are making some of the pve loadouts less effective in order attempt to give them a pvp role. If you assume the majority of ppl who trained and use marauders did so for pve, its kinda a slap in the face.

Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:

• Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
• Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus

We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.

Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards.
Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec".
Every one of your actions displays what you think.

Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.

You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others.
Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.

Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.

And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.

Coz my T3 or command will get rr and marauder wont...? A dread wont be dropped on me? Man you clearly have no idea about wh warfare...

1. The addition of a range bonus (on the hull AND on bastion) is a far greater boost to applied DPS than the loss of two unbonused sentry drones.
2. Manually shooting frigs one at a time via webs is absurdly inefficient. You pop them at range or you use drones. Webbing them and waiting for them to speed down is a phenomenal waste of time. Just fire off your MJD and blap them from 100km away, you got a range bonus, use it.

Oh, right, you're not going to fit that, you're going to insist on burning around with a MWD and pretend you're flying a Mach, and then complain how whatever you're flying is worse than the Mach.

Bastion opens up the possibility of soloing 10/10 plexes, high class WH anomalies, L5 missions, and moving Logistics ships out of Incursion sites in favor of more DPS because they can local tank full aggro. The current tank is insufficient for all of those. But, of course, you don't care about any of that, because you either don't do any of that content or faceroll it with your five boxed Logi alts. Then you get incensed when others are happy with a ship that lets them do things on one account.

People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"

It is.

Oh man, you're not kidding about that aspect... If we thought 5000+ comments on the Marauder rebalance was epic, just wait until the Machariel rebalancing.

In order to make Marauders more viable pve and pvp option is to fix its core problems:

- Fixing scan resolution (%70 pvp, %30 pve)
- Fixing sensor strength (%80 pvp, %20 pve)
- T2 Resists (%50 pvp, %50 pve)

- Just fixing these will make them more considerable option for pvp. They really needed nothing else.
- Salvaging mechanics are already be taken care of so no problems there.
- Remove mjd bonus. Put a cap recharge bonus per marauder level instead. (mwd+ab+active tank friendly)
- For the bastion module (not mentioning falloff+optimal bonus);
a - Reducing heat by ((marauders level * 16) + (high energy physics * 2)) percent. (makes 90 percent at most)
b - Remove ewar immunity (went for constant sensor strength increase + scan res. instead)
c - Remove mobility penalty.
d - Remove local repair bonus while in bastion if it still has one in its current iteration.
e - Powergrid boost is fine since it will give people more choices.
f - Remove that extra +1 high. +1 med slot for ST marauders, and +1 low slot for AT marauders.

What about this?

"New Marauders"

Where?

There are no new Marauders. Actually the last idea of Joe Risalo, which I also agree with is really about "new marauders".
This is the thread of current marauders, and about re-balancing them. Re-balance means they're out-balanced in time, their stats need some work in order to keep up with the game. This is not necessarily about a new ship.

What design team did is that they just put a module that transforms you. People have been using Marauders for pve missions, and their current ship is getting a nerf without transformation. What I suggest is a re-balance proposal, not a new ship or module. That was my point of view.

But then, Debora Tsung kindly said that what I proposed was simply a slow mach, which was indeed close. I failed to propose the right thing, but again, that didn't also justify the new design brings something enjoying in the arsenal.

I mean I have to jump-sit-jump-sit during missions from now on :( I really wanted to clash my shield into enemies' hull.
I want to hear the scream of my shields when being low, I want to fight in a way that I've been fighting so far without getting nerfed!
I want to fight like: http://youtu.be/MXcLybhbChQ

That was my enjoyment :P, now I will have to snipe in order to maintain isk/hour... :(

It would be cool if I can adjust how further I jump. Unfortunately, you'll mostly fall behind the enemy, sometimes much far away. Even if I jump right into them, since my ship got nerfed, I will get more damage on my little lesser hull, I have to reduce risk by pushin saveMeButton, which will immobilize me :(

This will reduce the enjoyment of being actively manuavering between enemy hulls. Sitting is simply boring. And I haven't been sitting so far with my Marauder. So, I am not proposing something that have never been here. I just want to move! Ofc without getting nerfed.

I disagree they can fit nicely into some armour doctrines in low sec and would be a good replacement for faction BS gangs - you don't need to use bastion (though i'd still fit it and use it on occasions) and these ships can provide a good defence vs dread drops. while still dealing enough DPS across the field.

In 0.0 they would need to find a new doctrine - but i doubt they will be used.

People who plan on taking on the high sec Pvp that will come with POCO ownership will probably fly the shield versions in small active tanked fits vs un-organised foes as it may allow them to use a much smaller fleet and bait these people into a fight they would not normally do.

What's the range of that tractor/salvage module?

They have never been a working class outside of missions and even then they suffered badly to E-war.

The new ships are great fun in pvp and I already have several fits ready to go in November. Webs are simply not needed as its a long range boat and when coupled with the new E-war frigs you will be blapping frigs trying to burn to you at 60 to 80km. The ability to tank a 50 man frig gang while dishing out death is hilarious.

These arn't made for big fleet fights, they are made for small scale combat and yes, I will be enjoying my billion isk hulls because, unlike you, I don't care about risking some internet spaceship pixels to have fun.

Really? You won't even try to make your case?

Yea, I was actually waiting for the part were I could make the suggestion that he should start to use a vindicator if his normal playstyle really got so severely impacted.

But meh. Workload in the office is increasing so I don't think I'll really care anymore.

What's the point, really. There's been almost zero interaction from the devs and almost 6,000 odd posts later we're back at a slightly modified version of the first iteration. This has been the case for almost every rebalancing effort, ie: what you first see is more or less what you're going to end up with.

Which I'm fine with. But let's dispense with the guise that this actually provides an opportunity to have any kind of real input or interaction with CCP devs. This is a basically an announcement forum for changes that are more or less already carved in stone, with the "features and ideas" aspect basically here for us to entertain ourselves with.

This isn't our game - we're merely tourists.

I think this can largely be attributed to testing on SISI than anything informative suggested on here.

Yeah, because certain elements were always set in stone.

PLease try this useles tactic.. another free marauder kill for us or some other entity.


WTF people? Peopel are just hat blind to the realization that being static measn no one has to be inside your range if you are dangerous? That means that ALL fights that you effectively do fight... are the ones that you are sure to loose!